Torcail of Torlyon - change of holding name to Torcaill macLeoid mhic Iomhair This submission is returned for being on out of date forms.

Isabella de Bordeaux - change of device. Per bend Or and sable, a sun in it's splendor vert and a bunch of grapes Or. This submission is returned for being on out of date forms.

Tamsyn Northover

(Talith Jennison)

4/25 Goble St

Niddrie

Vic. 3042

Australia

rocket@sca.org.au 

Lochac Letter of Intent May 27th 2007 

Unto Elisabeth de Rossingnol, Laurel Queen of Arms; Margaret MacDubhshithe, Pelican Queen of Arms; Jeanne Marie Lacroix, Wreath Queen of Arms, and the members of the College of Arms does Tamsyn Northover, Rocket Herald, send greetings! 

The Lochac College of Heralds requests that the following items be considered for registration: 
 
 

1. Ildhafn, Barony of

New Badge 

[Fieldless] a lymphad argent. 

Letters of permission to conflict with Runa Ragnarsdottir Sable, a drakkar argent [Sept 1997 via Caid],  and Thorgrimr inn Kyrri [Fieldless] a lymphad with oars shipped argent, sails set and pennoned sable [Aug 2004 via Atlantia], have been provided. 

The Barony’s name was registered in October 1995 via Caid. 
 

2. Kazimira Suchenko

New Badge 

[Fieldless] a fireball azure. 

The submitter’s name was registered April 1997 via the East. 
 
 
 
 
 

3. Robin of the May

Appeal of Kingdom return of Name and

Appeal of Kingdom return of Device 

Gules, a horse courant contourney and a mountain argent. 

This device was returned at Kingdom in July 2006 for the several reasons: “The design is very pictorial which is against period heraldic practice”, “The horse doesn’t need to be in chief and we would ask that you consider lowering it somewhat”, “The horse is not depicted as courant.  Please redraw the horse in a standard heraldic way”. 

The submitter appeals this decision with the following arguments: 
 

1) "The design is very pictorial which is against period heraldic practice". 

How pictorial is "too pictorial" is of course a judgement call, and some heralds may draw the line more closely than others. Any animate charge combined with a mount or mountain is going to look pictorial, likewise a mount or mountain with a crescent, stars, the sun, a comet, or a tower/castle. However, devices featuring these combinations have been registered as recently as October 2006, the most recent LoAR available online. 
 

The precedent below gives an example which is considerably more "pictorial"

than the current submission: 

[*Sable, a dhow Or sailed argent issuant from a ford proper and in chief a decrescent and an increscent Or*] Some commenters inquired if this armory was overly pictorial armory per RfS VIII.4.a, "Pictorial Design", which states, in part, "Design elements should not be combined to create a picture of a scene or landscape. For example, combining a field divided *per fess wavy azure and Or* with a sun and three triangles Or, as well as a camel and two palm trees proper to depict the Nile Valley would not be acceptable." It is important to remember that heraldry reminiscent of simple landscapes is not uncommon period armory. The "landscape" in this armory is similar to period armorial designs, and is much simpler than the example given in RfS VIII.4.a. 

In particular, period civic armory often includes designs where a ship or a building issues from a ford or similar charge depicting water in base. Jiri Louda's *European Civic Coats of Arms* gives the history of many civic coats of arms along with illustrations. The arms of Paris in the 13th C were *Gules, a lymphad issuant from a base wavy argent*, and Charles V added a chief *azure semy-de-lys Or* in 1358. A piece of civic armory even more reminiscent of a landscape was granted to Cambridge in 1575, *Gules an arched bridge throughout, in chief a fleur-de-lys Or between two roses argent barbed and seeded proper, in base three lymphads sable sailing atop a ford proper*. [*Achmed ibn Yousef*, *05/03 <http://sca.org/heraldry/loar/2003/05/03-05lar.html>*,

A-Atlantia] 

The precedent below suggests that an animal standing on top of a mount is not too pictorial: 

(November 1999, Bastian Wolfhart) [a wolf statant gules atop a mount vert] The wolf appears to be neither on nor atop the mount; a blazon which more accurately reproduces the emblazon is Argent, a mount vert, overall a wolf statant gules. However, we do not register charges that overlap peripheral ordinaries. [Bastian Wolfhart, 11/99, R-Middle] 
 

Below are several recent examples of registered devices featuring animate charges with mounts, mountains, or architecture, in arrangements which are as pictorial -- or more so -- than the submitted device: 

Fatima al-Naqidah. 

The following device associated with this name was registered in October of

2006 (via Gleann Abhann) 

Sable, a frauenadler displayed perched upon a mountain and in chief three mullets Or . [on the October 2006 LoAR, not in the online Ordinary] 

Genevieve Cranwell. 

The following device associated with this name was registered in July of

2006 (via the East) 

Azure, a crane in its vigilance argent and a base argent masoned azure. [on the July 2006 LoAR, not in the online Ordinary] 

Draco de Monte Cassino 

The following device associated with this name was registered in April of

2005 (via Caid): 

Vert, a dragon passant contourny Or maintaining in each talon a grenade proper between two towers argent and a mountain of three peaks Or. 

Wolfram der Trüwe 

The following device associated with this name was registered in September of 2003 (via the Middle): 

Argent, a falcon gules perched atop a mountain azure all within a bordure sable. 

Krag MacYntier 

The following device associated with this name was registered in April of

2003 (via Ansteorra): 

Or, two bears statant respectant gules and a mountain sable. 
 
 

There are in addition several registered devices which combine mounts or mountains with stars, comets, or towers. 

2) "The horse doesn't need to be in chief and we would ask that you consider lowering it somewhat." 

The Rules for Submission Part X.4.g states: 

"Arrangement Changes - Changing the relative positions of charges in any group placed directly on the field or overall is one clear difference, provided that change is not caused by other changes to the design. 

Changes to other parts of the design frequently cause changes to the arrangement of charge groups, so changing from Argent, a fess between two unicorns within an orle purpure to Argent, a pale between two unicorns within an orle purpure requires that the unicorns move from in pale to in fess. Changing from Argent, three unicorns purpure toArgent, four unicorns purpurewill also cause some change in arrangement. These changes do not provide independent difference. Changes that are made on their own, like changing fromthree mullets in fess to three mullets in pale , or from six mullets on an uncharged field to five mullets in cross, are clear differences." 

For this rule to make sense, it must be possible to make changes to the arrangement or position of charges that are NOT forced by the design. The horse does not need to be in chief, but the submitter wants it there. 

Two precedents regarding unforced arrangement: 

[*Gules, in dexter chief a fret couped argent*] This does not conflict with ... *Per fess gules fretty argent and sable*. There is one CD for the change to the field. The comparison between the fretty in chief and the fret couped in dexter chief is like the comparison between a mullet in chief and a mullet in dexter chief. This is an unforced move and thus worth a CD. This also does not conflict with ... *Per saltire gules and pean, a fret argent*.

There is one CD for the change to the field and another for the unforced move of the primary charge to dexter chief. [*Ané{zv}ka z Ro{zv}mitála*, *

11/01 <http://sca.org/heraldry/loar/2001/11/01-11lar.html>*, A-Ansteorra] 
 

[*Per chevron gules and sable, in base a dragon passant Or*] This does not conflict with ... *Per fess indented azure and gules, a wyvern passant Or*.

There is one CD for changing the field and a second for the unforced move of the dragon to base. While it is true that the dragon, in order to fill the space, extends slightly into the upper half of the shield, the fact that the dragon is entirely below the per chevron line of division is an unmistakable visual cue that the charge is, indeed, in base. [*Alex the Scribe*, *09/02<http://sca.org/heraldry/loar/2002/09/02-09lar.html>

*, A-Atenveldt] 

And one precedent allowing patterns of arrangement which do not match period patterns: 

[*Azure, in chief three cups inverted in chevron Or and in base three plates in chevron*] The arrangement of the charges does not match any period pattern. However, this is only one weirdness and is thus registerable. [*Ælfgar Greggor of Vulpine Reach*, *08/01<http://sca.org/heraldry/loar/2001/08/01-08lar.html>

*, A-Merides] 

3) "The horse is not depicted as courant. Please redraw the horse in a standard heraldic way." 

J.P. Brooke-Little, in _An Heraldic Alphabet_ lists: 

"Courant (also Current) Running at full speed. A horse courant is usually shown with forelegs stretched in front and hind-legs together in the rear - anatomically impossible but heraldically acceptable." 

The Laurel website the article "A Heraldic Primer: Quadrupeds and their Postures" 

(http://www.sca.org/heraldry/primer/quadrupeds.html accessed 29 January

2007) has: 

"Courant - Running Body elongated, head erect, all four legs extended." 
 

The accompanying illustration of a lion fits Brooke-Little's description, and is not dissimilar in its posture to the horse in Robyn's device. 

The Lochac College of Heralds supports this appeal. 

The submitter will accept ALL changes, does not care about the gender of the name, and makes no other requests. 

Robyn Withycombe 3^rd ed. s.n. Robert “Robin, a diminutive form of Rob was in the 13^th C more usual than Robert itself.” 

<Robyn> Coventry Mysteries 15thC. 

of the May the submitter offers two possible constructions for this element. 

1. a locative ‘dweller by the Hawthorn tree”.. OED http://dictionary.oed.com May n2 l3.  “Hawthorn blossom (0ccas.) a hawthorn tree” c. 1450, also 1640.

 

This construction is based on examples found in Reaney & Wilson s.n. Wood.  Alexander <of the Wode> 1285.  s.n. OfChurch Adam <Ofthechuche> 1293 and Elizabeth <Offechurche> 1340-1450

and Matthews, CM, English Surnames, London: Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 1966, p.39  <Reinbald de Bece> (of the beech tree). 

2. The submitter argues that a ‘May’ is a period object that could have been painted on an inn sign hence ‘dweller at the Sign of the May’. OED online ibid l2a “construction of flowers or foliage assembled on or near May Day”

This construction is based on examples in Reaney & Wilson s.n. Rose, Royce, Royse – Robert <de la Rose> 1242 fees(O); Adam <ate Rose> 1305 LoCt, from the sign of the rose. 

And also in Reaney, PH, Origin of English Surnames, Routlege & Kegan Paul, 1967, p. 58 Sign names …. <ate Gerland>. 

This name was returned at Kingdom in July 2006 for “lack of documentation for the element ‘of the May’. We do not believe that there is sufficient evidence to suggest that ‘May’ was used do describe the Hawthorn tree rather than it’s blossoms in period.  Post period there is certainly clear examples of May used to describe the tree but all the examples in the OED prior to 1500 seem to relate to flowers.  As there are no period names of the form ‘of the <flower>’ we must return the name”. 

The submitter has expanded the documentation for each possible construction, and makes the following arguments against the Kingdom return: 
 

1) "We do not believe that there is sufficient evidence to suggest that 'May' was used to describe the Hawthorn tree rather than it's blossoms in period.  Post period there is certainly clear examples of May used to describe the tree but all the examples in the OED prior to 1500 seem to relate to flowers." [typos in the original, sorry] 

The submitted OED citation provides one example with the desired "tree"

meaning from before 1500, and one from 1640, in the "gray area".  We believe that the commenting heralds misread the submitted citation. 

-- The OED Lydgate citation means "tree", not (or at least not

exclusively) "flower". 

The OED citation for May n2 3. states "Hawthorn blossom; (occas.) a hawthorn tree."  The two potential meanings for the word "may" in the quotations that follow must therefore be equivalent (generically) to either "the flower" or "the tree".  The second quotation given under May

n2 3 is: 

a1475 (?1445) LYDGATE Minor Poems (1911) I.367 Now, glorious seynt Iohn of Beuerylay...Gadre us floures of heuenly maye. 

If we substitute the two potential meanings of "the flower" and "the tree", the phrase becomes either "gather us flowers of the heavenly flower", which is redundant, or "gather us flowers of the heavenly tree", which makes sense.  Therefore, we believe that the Lydgate quotation provides a period example of the word "may" used to mean "hawthorn tree". 

-- The OED Lydgate citation is period

According to the published Guide to OED entries at

http://dictionary.oed.com/about/guide/sense.html#quotation:

a. Date of publication

The date of publication for each quotation is given in bold type. For older texts, especially for those dating from before the invention of printing, this date may be a manuscript date or the date at which the text is thought to have been composed.

The LYDGATE link in the OED citation above leads to http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-l2.html#lydgate which is the page titled  "OED Online Bibliography: Li-Ly".  Of the 29 listed publications in the bibliography for John Lydgate, there are three titled "Minor

Poems": 

Minor poems, A selection from the c 1430 (Percy Soc. 1840) Minor poems c 1430 (E.E.T.S. 1911) Minor poems. The two nightingale poems 1446 (E.E.T.S. 1900) 

This suggests that the date of the manuscript used by EETS was 1475, and that the date of authorship was estimated at 1445.  The (1911) in the "may" citation refers to the publication date of Lydgate's Minor Poems by the Early English Text Society, not the date of authorship.  In any case, the quotation itself is necessarily period, as the author lived and died in period. 

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09468c.htm accessed 05 March 2007 (printout included), John Lydgate was a contemporary of Chaucer, born about 1370, and dying "probably about 1450". 

-- The OED also offers a "gray area" citation which explicitly equates "Hawthorne" with "May": 

1640 J. PARKINSON Theatrum Botanicum 1026 The Hawthorne is called..Hawthorne or Hedgethorne, Whitethorne and May or May-bush. 

According to the OED bibliography, the quote is from John Parkinson's Theatrum botanicum: the theater of plants, or an herball of a large extent published in 1640. 

The University of London King's College Book of the Month write up of Parkinson's Paradisi in sole (http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/iss/library/speccoll/bomarch/bomapril05.html

accessed 05 March 2007, printout included) describes Theatrum Botanicum: 

"In his opening address to the reader in Paradisi in sole Parkinson promised a fourth section on simples. This eventually evolved into Parkinson's second major work, Theatrum Botanicum, which was published in 1640 and contained descriptions of some 3800 plants and their medicinal properties. As in Paradisi in sole, Parkinson's displays his knowledge of the relevant authorities, by making extensive references to the works of other authors. Theatrum Botanicum uses the botanical nomenclature developed in Caspar Bauhin's Pinax and also makes extensive use of manuscript notes left by Maathias de L'Obel, who had spent the final years of his life in Highgate supervising the gardens of Edward, eleventh Baron Zouche." 

That Parkinson used botanical nomenclature to describe the plants in Theatrum Botanicum, suggests that when he is speaking of "Hawthorne or Hedgethorne, Whitethorne and May or May-bush" he is speaking of the entire plant – the tree – rather than just its flowers.  If he was further describing the medicinal uses of the plant, then this is even more likely, since the uses of all parts of the plant would be under discussion. 

Part I.1 of the Rules for Submission state, "The period of the Society has been defined to extend until 1600 A. D." 

The CoA Glossary of Terms (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/coagloss.html) states: 

Gray Area. For the purposes of documenting names and armory, anything that can be documented as late as 1650 may be considered acceptable, even though the official cut-off date of the SCA's domain as defined in Corpora is 1600. The period from 1601 to 1650 is known as the "gray area," and exists because it is logical to assume that something current in the period 1601-1650 may also have been current in the last years of the 16th Century, so long as there is no specific evidence to the contrary. Gray area documentation should only be used as a last resort. See also Documented, Domain of the Society, Period. 

2) "As there are no period names of the form 'of the <flower>' we must return the name." 

As suggested on the original submission, an alternate possibility would be to construct "of the May" as a sign name. 

The submitted OED citations offer multiple period references for "may"

meaning "hawthorn blossom".   If this flower were painted on an inn sign,

then it should be possible to construct a locative byname from the sign similar to the below: 

P. H. Reaney, A Dictionary of English Surnames, under the heading Rose, Royce, Royse – Robert de la Rose 1242 Fees(O); Adam ate Rose 1305 LoCt.

>From the sign of the rose. 

For "may" as a type of garland or decoration, the following OED citation provides three period quotations: 

May 2. a. A construction of flowers or young foliage assembled on or near May Day to mark the beginning of summer.

1432-3 in R. Peter & O. B. Peter Hist. Launceston & Dunheved (1885) 124 [For expenses about] ‘le May’. 1515 in J. L. Glasscock Rec. St. Michael's, Bp. Stortford (1882) 34 Item pd for brede and ale th same day that Sabysford may was whan they of Sabysford did come rydynd to the toune to sett ther may. 1582 C. FETHERSTONE Dial. agaynst Dauncing sig. D7v, Tenne maidens whiche went to set May, and nine of them came home with childe. 

A "construction of flowers" called a "may", likewise painted on an inn sign, should similarly support "of the May" as a locative byname based on the "atte Gerland" (Garland) example below (photocopy included): 

P.H. Reaney, The Origin of English Surnames, Routledge & Kegan Paul 1967.

p.58 Sign Names.  "Most Londoners had by this time [1423-6 London Brewers'

records] acquired fixed surnames, but it is possible that such inn-names as the following were already old and may have become surnames: atte hertishorn, atte Shippe, atte Mone, atte Crane, atte Gerland, atte Rammeshed, atte Cristophore, atte panyer." 

The submitter prefers "of the" to "atte".  Bynames from inn signs using "of the" have been registered without comment as recently as 2004: 

Gwyneth of the Red Gryphon

This name was registered in October of 2004 (via Caid). 

Darius of the Bells

This name was registered in April of 1998 (via Ansteorra). 

Astrid of the Yellow Rose

This name was registered in January of 1995 (via the Middle). 
 

The Lochac College of Heralds collectively has no opinion on this appeal. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

This letter contains 1 name appeal, 1 device appeal, and 2 new badges.  The office of Crux Australis Herald will forward the appropriate monies to Laurel in the usual manner. 

Here ends Lochac’s May 27th letter of intent. 

Yours in Service, 
 

Tamsyn Northover

Rocket Herald