Possible Devices 
for the 
Kingdom (King) of Lochac


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Per fess sable and gules a crown dancetty of three within a laurel wreath Or. 
Karl-Faustus von Aachen

Identifier: KFvA1 Comments: 
  • (1) Per fess sable and gules (etc).  Why has nobody thought of this before? - Del
  • OK - Thorfinn
  • Too close to the Aboriginal Flag presents possible mundane conflict. It is a nice concept though with good colour usage. Possibly make the background quarterly?? Yes you can use that as a suggestion. - Ulfrikr inn Hrafn
  • Our objection is that it is too close to the aboriginal flag, but more so, it is a dark device. Further, it does not preserve the current Kingdom colors so has no historical significance from a Lochac point of view. We do like the simple division of the per fess Identifier - Lorix and Gryffon
   
Azure, two crowns dancetty of three base to base within a laurel wreath argent. 
Richard de la Croix 
 
 
Identifier: RdlC2 Comments: 
  • Inverted symmetry is not a period practice and hence probably not allowed - Thorfinn 
  • The inverted symmetry does not particularly appeal to me. - Ulfrikr
  • The voided crown seems to blend into obscurity & the inverted symmetry does not properly display the crown. ie at first glance, it did not appear to be a crown, but a funnily drawn star. - Lorix & Gryffon
 
Quaterly azure and gules a crown dancetty of three within a laurel wreath argent. 
Richard de la Croix 
Identifier: RdlC3 Comments: 
  • Quite a shock to see I'm the only one apart from yourself who has suggested any Kingdom devices, tho.  Some of your ones I quite like, especially <Quarterly azure and gules a crown dancetty of three within a laurel wreath argent> - Karl-Faustus von Aachen
  • Good - Thorfinn
  • Very Nice. - Ulfrikr inn Hrafn
  • This one is nice. The red & blue complement each other & it doesn't appear as dark as the red & black combination. It preserves the current colors used & has a similar division (in appearance) of the colors (hey sentiment is not to be sniffed at) - Gryffon & Lorix
   
Quaterly azure and argent a cross gules, overall a crown dancetty of three voided within a laurel wreath quarterly argent and azure. 
Richard de la Croix 
Identifier: RdlC5 Comments: 
  • This is pushing this limits of complexity and thin line heraldry - Thorfinn
  • Counterchanging or otherwise parti-colouring a fimbriated crown is hideous - Cristoval
  • Does not appeal to me - Ulfrikr inn Hrafn
  • This one is really busy, it would be an horrendous task to actually have to sew this device & it is not as pretty as some of the others. The complex counterchanging seems also to give it an unbalanced look & the voided crown could just as easily not be there as it doesn't particularly stand out. - Lorix & Gryffon

     

 
Quaterly azure and gules, in cross three mullets of six points and a crown dancetty of three within a laurel wreath argent. 
Richard de la Croix 
Identifier: RdlC6 Comments: 
  • Unbalanced central charges and possibly not acceptable - Thorfinn
  • Does not appeal to me - Ulfrikr
  • Feel unbalanced. Seems bottom heavy with a squished crownIdentifier
     
Gules a crown dancetty of three voided within a laurel wreath, all within four mullets of six points argent. 
Richard de la Croix 
Identifier: RdlC9 Comments: 
  • Good - Thorfinn
  • I think I like the gules field, with the stars in cross the best, though the charges will have to be a bit small - Cristoval
  • I personally do not like this with the red field - Ulfrikr
  • This has a nice even feel to the actual device with the placement of the charges. The 4 stars give the embodiment of our current device & it retains 2 of the current colors. Prefer the red background to the blue. - Lorix & Gryffon
 
Quarterly azure and gules a crown dancetty of three voided within a laurel wreath, all within four mullets of six points argent. 
Richard de la Croix 
Identifier: RdlC10 Comments: 
  • This is my preferred option so far - Richard
  • Good - Thorfinn
  • Nice, once again I would prefer a solid crown - Ulfrikr
  • We don't like the voided Crown as it seems to render the crown insignificant compared to the solidness of the rest of the charges - Gryffon & Lorix
  • I prefer this as it is close to what we already have. Unfortunately, those closer would look unbalanced.
 
Quarterly azure and argent a crown dancetty of three voided within a laurel wreath, all within four mullets of six points gules. 
Richard de la Croix 
Identifier: RdlC11 Comments: 
  • Good - Thorfinn
  • Red charges seem to fade
  • Prefer the blue/red combination to the blue/white. The charges seem to blend into the background too much - Lorix and Gryffon
 
Quarterly azure and argent a crown dancetty of three voided within a laurel wreath counterchanged and a bordure gules charged with four mullets of six points argent. 
Richard de la Croix 
 
Identifier: RdlC12 Comments: 
  • Excessively complex, would not be allowed - Thorfinn
  • Too complex - Ulfrikr
  • Too busy and not particularly attractive - Lorix & Gryffon

     

 
Quarterly azure and argent, on a cross gules four mullets of six points and in canton a crown dancetty of three voided within a laurel wreath argent 
Richard de la Croix 
Identifier: RdlC13 Comments: 
  • (2) Keeping as close to what we already have - Del
  • Excessively complex, would not be allowed - Thorfinn
  • Continuity with current device is nice. May indeed be too complex though - Ulfrikr
  • Whilst close to the original, the crown becomes insignificant in its voided state. It also looks unbalanced.

 
Argent a crown "dancetty of three voided" within a laurel wreath gules, all within four mullets of six points azure 
Thorfinn Hrolfssen 
Identifier: TH1 Comments: 
  • Good - Richard
  • Does not appeal to me - Ulfrikr
  • Bland - Dominic
  • It keeps the Kingdom colours Argent, Gules and Azure It has the device of our parent kingdom, It has the cross of stars from the current design, has a metal as field. Really stands out on the field. It is not complex. Thorfinn
  • This has a nice even feel to the actual device with the placement of the charges. The 4 stars give the embodiment of our current device & it retains all of the current colors. Although we would like to retain something more like to the current device for continuity sake, the stark simplicity of this is pleasing to the eye. It is the only device where a voided crown looks appropriate. We REALLY like this one.
    • Favorite for stark simplicity - Lorix
    • Very nice in own right - Gryffin

 

Quarterly sable and gules a crown "dancetty of three" within a laurel wreath gules, all within four mullets of six points azure 
Ulfrikr inn Hrafn
Identifier: ULF1 Comments: 
  • rather complex and dark, and the obvious parallel to the Aboriginal flag is a bit disenfranchising (to use a PC term), although I personally don't have a problem with acknowledging the first Australians.- Dominic
  • same objections as for KFvA1above. there are other devices we find more aesthetically & sentimentally pleasing - Gryffon & Lorix

 

Argent a crown "dancetty of three " within a laurel wreath gules, all within four mullets of six points azure 
Ulfrikr inn Hrafn
Identifier: ULF2 Comments:
  • a bit simple to me.- Dominic


Quarterly azure and argent, on a cross gules four mullets of six points, in canton a laurel wreath and in dexter base a crown dancetty of three all argent
Identifier: JvG1 Comments: 
  • I personally think the Crown should be central to the device (i.e. in the centre of the device). Personally I believe that pushing the Crown off to one side detracts from it's importance. It becomes a secondary charge, rather than primary. Visually the Cross and Stars are the design elements which will command the most attention. Ulfrikr inn Hrafn
  • This is the closest to the original. * It will require minimum adjustment (to device & regalia). It is probably the most cost effective. It retains the heritage of our original device. Has a balanced feel. - Lorix & Gryffon

 

 

Per fess azure and gules within a laurel wreath a crown dancetty of three argent (Identifier: JvG2)
Jan of Ghent
Identifier: JvG2 Comments: 
  • Not bad. I would be satisfied with this. However, I do like the inclusion of the stars because it relates an item back to the Kingdom device without too much visual complexity (I feel the cross over quarterly gives too much visual complexity). - Francois Henri Guyon
  • I think that both jvg2 and 3 are pretty ugly (Sorry folks). Looks like a very run down African (post british colonial) flag belonging to a country so small it is impossible to write the name of it within the borders of a reasonably scaled map - Sasha.
  • Like the simplicity of the division, but tend to prefer the quarterly division as it is closer to the original. However, whilst this would be OK (preserves current 3 colors) its . . . blah. - Lorix and Gryffon

 

Per fess azure and gules, between in cross four mullets within a laurel wreath a crown dancetty of three argent

Jan of Ghent

Identifier: JvG3 Comments: 
  • My favorite, although I prefer Azure and Gules - Francois
  • Again, like the simplicity of the division, but tend to prefer the quarterly division as it is closer to the original * Prefer the stars & it doesn't have a voided crown - Lorix and Gryffon

 

Quarterly azure and gules a crown dancetty of three within a laurel wreath, all within four mullets of six points argent. 
Dominic
Identifier: Dom1

Comments: 

 

 

Quartery azure and argent, on a cross gules a crown between four mullets of six points, in canton a laurel wreath all argent
Reynardine de Clifford
Identifier: Dom1

Comments: 

  • I believe that this has the advantage of making the crown central to the device and not having to remake all those existing banners. For new banners, I would recommend making the cross a little larger to make more room for the crown and stars - Reynardine
  • This would result in an unbalanced design. If viewed without the wreath, however, it would be balanced. - Jan
  • Comes a close second - Lorix
  • I favour Dom 1 for its relation to the original - Gryffin.

 

 

General Comments:

I think some elements should be retained (to create a sense of evolution), with the following order of precedence: 1. Colours 2. Charges 3. Composition. IMO, the "cleanest" designs appear to be those without the mullets.- Jan of Ghent

I prefer the set of designs with the stars outside the laurel wreath (except for the red one). I also prefer a solid crown (as a crown with substance). So I prefer ULF2, or RdeLC10 with a solid crown. - Francois Henri Guyon

Can we incorporate the stars into the laurel wreathe in the same way as the queen of the west has roses incorporated into hers? It would be a little fiddly at a distance but would look great as you got closer (would not make the devise less identifiable at a distance...you would just get more detail up close). This would allow the crown to be proportionally larger upon the field and make it the truly central charge. Sasha

The Queen's arms have a wreath of roses. Are you propsing a wreath of mullets? Again, not good period heraldry. Uberto

On keeping the old arms for the crown Prince and Princess: This is a brilliant idea.I would prefer to keep the old arms with as little change as possible, but this isn't because they have great symbolic meaning for me. It is because I dislike unnecessary cost and waste. Spending $X00.00 on new regalia while putting the old stuff away in the attic somewhere is, in my opinion, pretty close to culpable waste of society funds already invested, not to mention hundreds of hours of effort on banners and so on in every group across Lochac. Using it as the regalia for the Crown Prince and Princess maintains the value of that investment. I'd still prefer to go with the old device and regalia, but at least this way the unnecessary cost isn't aggravated by unnecessary waste. Besides, if everyone already has those banners and so on, the CP&P will nearly *have* to hold courts, so that they can be properly displayed, thus reducing the workload on the Crown. Peter the Uncertain

Please let us keep the colours, the stars and cross of our current device, so we do not forget our roots.... Katerina da Brescia.

I was much struck by the royal device in red-black-gold; I *like* it; it says something to me. I do not know much about heraldry; recognise only one or two devices; I would not recognise Lochac's current device, despite having been around SCA for two to four years. The device of an australian kingdom ought to say something about Australia; and of course, in-period, Australia was known best by Aboriginal peoples! The comment about the work and money invested in present banners is fair, though. Can some place be retained for them? Rachel

On Crowns - to void or not to void!

I think the central crown is the most logical, the least contentious, the most easily excepted, the most cost efficient but the red black and gold option on the page is a beauty - Kane Greymane

I don't like voided Crowns (due to the reduction in contrast it presents and the undesirable symbolism of a "A Crown without substance"), plain field quartering (too visually complex, especially when aligning charges around the point of conjunction, and an arguably "tired" motif). Jan of Ghent

"I don't like the voided Crowns". Neither do I! Artistically its too fiddly for the size ratio - it ends up being about the same size as the stars and having it voided it makes it pretty hard to see at all on most of the proposed devices. Yes I know its on all our West banners ... not a strong enough reason to use it on ours in my opinion. Its much more visually striking in a solid gold or silver. One of the better renditions of a solid crown visually is made by cutting one of the stars in half horizontally and increase the size about 20%. Reynardine de Clifford

I like the voided crown for a number of reasons. It is artistically more pleasing and better to work with when incorporating it into awards tokens and fiddly heraldic bits like plates and tableware. I like it because it is not a nearly meaningless solid blob in the middle of the device. hmmmm.... If we could have any detail at all in the crown representation then I think it could work well but as a solid outline it is just a ragged shape that looks like a child's drawing of the opera house...or mountains, or a duck. It is basically only meaningfull if you have some context...ie: the SCA. I would rather have something that went beyond this. Perhaps if we tried a solid crown with a star voided in the centre of it....or something? Just a thought, but it might highlight my objections to the solid meaningless blob. Sasha

A plain or voided crown "dancetty of 3 points" does, I admit, look too stylised even for heraldry. However, there are some very nice heraldic crowns which look like real crowns and allow for some detail to be present. Uberto

Gryffon du Lac & Lorix: Neither of us are heralds & are commenting merely from an aesthetic, practical & sentimental point of view as we like the current Lochac colors. As a basic principle, given the sheer amount of regalia, we would prefer a device that utilises the existing colors that are on the current device: ie red, Blue & white. There is an historical precedent of these colors being Lochac's and depending on the device chosen, there may need to be only small changes to the resulting regalia. Alternatively, if the colors remain the same & the device is fairly different, some of the regalia may be able to be recycled, just a thought.

 

 

 

 


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